Interviewed with Loren Reed Johnson by Channel 9

Loren Reid Johnson

Channel 9 Interviewer: Good morning. It's nice to meet you. What did you learn from meditation?
Loren: Well, I learned first to focus my attention on the center of the center of the body. And, from there, the center expanded to surround my entire body. As I continued to focus on the center, I saw my refined human body and became that - continuing to focus on the center. This happened again and again, all the way until I reached my refinest Dhammakaya body.

And, how did you feel when you first reached your own nucleus in your stomach?
It felt very cool and calm and a very deep, expanding sense of joy... happiness.
And how did you feel after you completed all 18 bodies and reached Dhammakaya?
Well, each body became less and less dense. So, we begin with the human body which is the most crude and mundane, and then it becomes more and more refined until it reaches the most refined Dhammakaya which is the least dense. It totally transcends any sense of personal ego.

And, did you feel that what you saw was imagination or reality?
Very little imagination. It happened automatically. I just focused on the center of the center and it appeared by itself.

And did you see hell or heaven?
Yes.

And what did you see there?
Well, many things. In hell, I saw many levels of different punishments. I saw different people in one level who were being attacked by a dog - very mean and angry. And, they were trying to escape - climbing a tree with thorns. Also, like vultures were trying to attack them and they would fall and then the dog would get them.
And, I would look at the nucleus of the people - very dark. In the nucleus I would see why they were there - because of sexual misconduct. And I would see lots of shame and guilt and mental poison.
And then we went to another level and I saw a large caldron ... Large! People were inside it. Hot! With what looked like a very hot liquid or melted metal like lead.
And they are inside, burning. And some had to drink this very smelly - very bad liquid.
And I look at their nucleus and I see that most had drunk alcohol. Also some drugs and things, but mostly alcohol. And they drink the liquid and it cooks their organs - especially the brain. It fries the brain.
And then, in hell, the worst thing I saw - below the 8th level - below the murders and all the liars and thieves - I saw the false teachers. And they had blindfolds. They couldn't see and they were running into each other - chaos and lots of torment. And their bodies were burned dark like they had been scalded with acid. There was a dead smell - a very thick smell.
And then I became the refined Dhammakaya and then we saw heaven. And there we saw the opposite, really. Very luminous - very beautiful. The center of the beings was very radiant. In hell the beings had a very dark, cloudy nucleus. In heaven I saw them very radiant and glowing like a crystal sphere. And, I could look into the center and see why they were there - all the meritorious things, the many good deeds they did for the people.
Some were on earth; some flying through the sky. I saw many in trees. But, the main difference between heaven and hell was what I saw at the center of the beings - either evil deeds or good, meritorious deeds.

So, you saw both sides - hell and heaven and the good things and bad things that people do. And, did you see Nirvana?
Yes, I did. It goes beyond what we think of as earth and water and fire. All of these things, I saw none of. I saw countless saints and Buddhas - as far as the eye could see. And they were very very radiant, with glowing centers. I focused on them and I could see all the good things they did to make them so brilliant.

But, the most luminous, in the center, was Buddha - the Primordial Buddha - surrounded by Buddhas. And, I asked for permission, and I touched Lord Buddha on the leg. And it felt very very cold, like ice.

What do you think were the good points that you got from meditation?
Well, I feel that this particular style of meditation, Dhammakaya, is a very very direct way to experience directly my highest self.

And, when you are back in America, what will you do?
Well, I plan on teaching Dhammakaya. I have clients that I practice meditation, yoga and massage with already, and I believe that sharing Dhammakaya with them will help them to help themselves.

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Loren Reid Johnson is 24 years old and lives in North Hollywood, California. He is a massage therapist, a yoga instructor, and a student of acting. Loren has practiced yoga daily for five years, studying with a teacher from India. He feels that Rishi Yoga prepared him best for his success in meditation. This practice includes restricting his diet to only fresh fruits and vegetables. Loren and his wife came to honeymoon in her native Thailand, and went from temple to temple seeking someone to teach meditation in English. This led to Wat Luang Phor Sodh. They knew nothing of Dhammakaya teachings. The Venerable Abbot, Phra Rajyanvisith suggested they come to group meditation Sunday morning. There, he recognized Loren's exceptional ability and assigned the Head of the monastery's Vipassana Division to teach him daily. After a week, Luang Pa started teaching him personally. Loren only studied two weeks, but had extraordinary success.

 

The second interview was conducted immediately following the brief TV interview above.

Loren's answers are exciting because they reflect the transcendental vision and experience that a Westerner, with no previous familiarity, can attain. They describe Loren's first impressions, not official Buddhism. Loren, himself, says repeatedly that he is sure he will understand various things better after more meditation. With this caveat in mind, please enjoy the following.

 

Phra Bart: Loren, what is your objective in studying meditation?
Loren: To realize more completely the inherent emptiness of all things

Phra Bart: And, how long have you been studying at Wat Luang Phor Sodh here?
Loren: For two weeks.

Phra Bart: Two weeks only? And during this brief study did you see Nirvana?
Loren: Yes.

Phra Bart: Congratulations. Sadhuu Anumodhana. Tell me about that first time that Sunday morning when you first tried Dhammakaya meditation. What did you see?
Loren: I focused on the center. I used my breathing and the center expanded automatically and surrounded my entire body. I felt very cool, and clean and peaceful -- calm. And as I continued to focus on the center of the center I saw my refined human body. I focused on the center and became my refined human body and the center expanded again and again all the way to my most refined Dhammakaya.

Phra Bart: And what would you say are the benefits of seeing this nucleus?
Loren: To stay at the center all the time -- at the center of the center. Its very grounding, focused.

Phra Bart: Can you actually control your body more. If you get sick can you somehow control it this way?
Loren: Definitely. You can refine and concentrate and purify all of the elements of the body and the mind by focusing on the center of the center. So, absolutely I feel you could definitely cure illness this way.

Phra Bart: What advice can you give for other beginning meditators who would like to try this approach? What are the secrets of how to see your own nucleus?
Loren: Well, when I first began, I used control of the breath. In yoga we call this “pranayam” and I imagined I was feeding the nucleus with the breath. It was growing more and more luminous as I focused my attention and my breathing on that spot. And then from there I began to see the refined human body and on up from there.

Phra Bart: Now, tell us about the "on up from there." You said eighteen bodies. Tell us about them
Loren: Well, the first body, the refined human body, looks like myself, the meditator. I see myself, but I am very clean and cool like a piece of quartz crystal or something like this. And the first eight bodies from the refined human body, the celestial body, the refined celestial body, crude Brahman and on up from there, for the first eight, look like more and more radiant versions of myself, the meditator. Then, I reached Dhammakaya, the ninth body, and then it looks more like the Buddha statue and transcends my own physical identity. So, They become less and less dense as I climb.

Phra Bart: Were you able to enter each of these bodies and feel the consciousness, the mind, of each body?
Loren: Definitely so. The first experiences I had with my highest Dhammakaya -- I felt like I kind of went right to that. I saw the first few bodies like my refined human body the crude celestial refined celestial...and then it became a little blurry and very bright and luminous and then I was my refined Dhammakaya. As I go back and explore all of the subtleties of each, there certainly are subtle differences between them, but at first it was more just going right to the top.

Phra Bart: What would you say is the benefit of getting to Dhammakaya -- of being able to see from this Dhammakaya point of view?
Loren: It is much easier to see the "is-ness" the "such-ness" the way things are -- to see past this crude material, mundane, earth-bound place we live in. From my Dhammakaya, it was easy to see what is what. I would say "perspective."

Phra Bart: It sounds like you are saying you get rid of bias. That's what I am hearing. When you see it from your own little point-of-view, its biased.
Loren: Yes, very much so. You have your own private ends to serve. You have your own agenda
and clinging to notions of the way things should be according to your desires. It was very easy to transcend personal desires, once I was in that refined state of Dhammakaya.

Phra Bart: Now, I understand the next thing you practiced was multiplying bodies. Tell us about that. What do you do and what was the purpose of this?
Loren : Well, much like the very beginning, I focus on the center and the nucleus expands, and then I see within the center the next body. Once I’m in the highest of the Dhammakayas, this is continual. It becomes infinitely more luminous, infinitely more refined, countlessly, over and over, from the center, growing out from the center.

Phra Bart: And then, from that you went to jhana -- the trance states that Lord Buddha experienced before enlightenment. What was the deepest jhana that you attained?
Loren: I think the very deepest jhana that I attained was when, from our Dhammakaya bodies we did past life regression. I was able to see who I was in a former life. The farther back I went, the heavier and heavier my physical body began to feel. I meditate and I see that this is because I am trying to see what is earth-bound -- what is base and temporary or fleeting. That is why I feel so base, so dense, so hard and heavy. What connects the lives that I see together is unfinished business. You could call it karma.

Phra Bart: Well, let me ask you more details about Nirvana. You talked before a little bit about it. When did you get to Nirvana and what did you see?
Loren : In the most refined Dhammakaya, we practiced forward and reverse jhana and refined our Dhammakaya. Then, I saw myself among many countless saints and Buddhas -- very very luminous -- radiant -- as far as I could see -- many many Buddhas. Its beyond the compound elements -- lots of light and radiance. Then, in the center, I see primordial Buddha -- larger than the rest -- more refined and brighter than the other Buddhas and saints. I meditate on the center of the center of this primordial Buddha, and then I find myself in that center, becoming even more radiant -- more refined -- infinitely, continual, never ending.

Phra Bart: Did you also see there Chakrapat, the Lord Treasurer?
Loren: Yes, I did.

Phra Bart : And did you see the treasures too? What are they?
Loren: They looked to me like seven lotuses or wheels and each one had seven levels – very abstract – I felt more than I saw, to be honest. Buddha holds up his hand and I feel them come into my refined Dhammakaya. They are within and I am seeing things clearly and I am hearing things encompassing all that I have heard so far – so many things – sensitive sounds. The sense of hearing and everything just seemed more refined and heightened. I could feel these things inside – refining my awareness.

Phra Bart: Can you summarize for us what is the difference between things in the compound world and things there in Nirvana?
Loren : This is more the world of form -- its in the name "compound" and Nirvana transcends this. I felt, I saw, I experienced. It is more sublime. Here everyone is mortal -- there is pain and suffering. In Nirvana, you move past that which is mortal to that which is immortal.

Phra Bart: You have already mentioned that you received the seven treasures. What other benefits do you think you get from seeing Nirvana? Does this mean that your meditation is finished. Now you are in Nirvana you don't have to meditate any more.
Loren: Oh no -- I think that meditation is more a journey, not a destination. Its never "I'm there now"; its something that you do. Your message is your practice. Especially, when seeing all of the primordial Buddhas and the most refined primordial Buddha -- its the same as seeing heaven and hell -- you look to the center and you can see all of their loving kindness and the good deeds. I probably would use the word "inspired / inspiration".

Phra Bart: Now, we talked earlier about the hells, and I found that the most exciting part of what you said. Tell us some more about the hells -- give us some more details.
Loren: Well, the beings in hell looked very uncomfortable -- so much pain. And the stink of it -- literally. In essence, it is all self-inflicted. It is all choices that we make that put us where we are. So, I saw the center of all the many people there and the choices that put them where they are.

In the 5th level, they are all in the caldron and they are all burning. The flesh and the muscles and the organs, and especially the brain are cooking in this putrid liquid. They have to drink it, but they are not dying. I see that this is the same as here in this compound world, with the alcohol and things -- some drugs, sure, but alcohol is the main one. I see that what people are doing just frying their brains -- destroying their brains.

Deeper than that, we saw murderers being burned endlessly, never dying. They are in chains. They can't move; they have to endure all of the pain.

But, the one that really sticks out in my mind was when we went below, beyond hell. There, the true outsiders or outcastes were all the false teachers. If I make a choice, that is "evil" or won't bring happiness to me -- a choice that doesn't come from my highest self -- this only affects myself. But, if I'm a teacher and I'm sharing these things with other people, that’s leading many people down a wrong path.

I think that's why they couldn't see. They were blinded, and their bodies were so burned -- beyond fire, like acid burns -- dark brown. And, the smell was so intense -- like what a rotting body smells like. Like they were inside their bodies, but the bodies were dead already. There were many bodies, running together in chaos upon levels of chaos. I took from this that if I am going to share with people, I must share the highest or share nothing.

Phra Bart: You answered my next question. I was going to say "How would this affect your future behavior." So, you feel sure now that there is a hell -- you have seen it. I mean, this wasn't imagination?
Loren: Oh no, with each of these visions -- the things that I have seen -- it is not a matter of imagination. It just appears on its own. It is there. I am just a witness. It is happening all around us. We can all see these things. It is just that most people don't want to see the truth -- the repercussions of their actions.

Phra Bart: Now, what about the heavens -- can you add something to what you said before. What kind of celestial beings did you see?
Loren: Well, in America, you see pictures of angels with wings. If the beings in heaven had wings, they were invisible. I just saw what looked similar to my own refined celestial body -- refined, very very luminous -- very refined. I see their centers and I see their meritorious behavior -- why they are there.
I saw one being larger than the rest -- more refined. I couldn't make out the physical features, per se, like you would look at a person and make out the lines of their face. It was so bright, so light. The underlying thing that I saw with the beings in heaven was -- would you say -- compassion -- service -- service to others -- "how can I help." You've got "What's in it for me" and "How can I help". In heaven, I felt surrounded by "How can I help".

Phra Bart: What about different levels. Did you see different levels in heaven?
Loren: I did. I mentioned the being that was larger. I saw so many beings on the first level with earth and sky and trees. Then, I came to this one very large, refined being, and I saw beyond were very beautiful landscapes -- mountains and things -- very lush. I felt as though this large celestial being was sort of the keeper, so I asked permission: "Can I see what lies beyond." I felt it more than I saw it. I felt surrounded by all this loving kindness and compassion. I did see other beings -- I did. I saw little congregations like groups here and there, but it was moving very quickly. I just felt surrounded by the loving kindness.

Phra Bart: Would you say that there were more beings in hell than in heaven?
Loren: Unfortunately, yes. That was my observation.

Phra Bart: Now, let me ask you a little about your own birth and death. Did you see your own birth?
Loren: I did see my own birth, yes.

Phra Bart: Did you see some past lives too?
Loren: I did. I didn't regress back so far, because I feel like before I go back back back many times, I should explore each. I feel that there is a lot to explore, and I don't want to overlook anything that I could learn from exploring these things. It was interesting. I saw my birth very clearly. When I explored my past lives, I felt so dense. It was a very sentient experience. Some things are feelings and you can hear and you can see. I know that if I explore these things they will become more and more visual. Now, it is so sentient. I feel so much the density of these things. As I explore more deeply they will become more visual and I will experience them with more of my senses.

Phra Bart: Did you also see your own death?
Loren: I would say that I experienced my own death. I wouldn't say I saw my own death, for the same reason that occurred when I tried to see my past life. When I tried to see my death, I went through the same process of contemplating the physical body -- the impurity and things -- and then I went five years at a time into the future. I definitely reached a point where I wasn't in my physical body any longer. I guess we call that death. But it wasn't actually seeing when or what I looked like. This was just a feeling I got from the center -- a gut feeling. I know that the deeper I explore and investigate, it will become clearer.

Phra Bart: This will be the last topic, I think. I understand that after you became advanced like this that Luang Pa taught you to actually see the Four Noble Truths. We have all heard or read the Four Noble Truths. What is the difference between actually seeing them and reading about them?
Loren: Well, you can have a theory of something and you can have a very thorough intellectual knowledge about something, but once you experience it -- once you see, feel and hear something, observing it directly, it sits a lot deeper. I think you see the truth of it more. You can talk about things and you can hear about things, and you experience these things. It is more direct knowing -- right to the source of the Truth.

Phra Bart: What about the First Noble Truth -- the Truth of Suffering? There are a lot of people who think that life is kind of fun. What would you say to them?
Loren: Well, that very notion -- "life is fun" -- if I believe that, I am going to try to perpetuate it. That in and of itself is a desire for fun. So, I am attached to that desire. Then comes the inevitability of suffering. It is never what we expected. You expect it to be this way, but the only thing constant is what is changing. So, it is different than what I foresaw. So, I am let down and I go through the whole emotional experience of pain and suffering and all these things. Disease begins in the mind. It is all

Phra Bart: Now you are answering my second question. I was going to ask about the Second Noble Truth, the Origin of Suffering -- the Chain of Dependent Origination or “Paticca Samupada.” What did you see? What new insights did you get about that?
Loren: I think you are right -- I did answer that. Its just a matter of being attached to my own narrow view that it should be this way. The inevitability is that its going to be the way its going to be. I can never completely foresee that, and,, therefore, I am upset, because I am attached to my own view -- my own personal view.

Phra Bart: What about the Third Noble Truth of the possibility of liberation -- what did you see new on that?
Loren: I think that the only way that we can be liberated -- move past what keeps us bonded to suffering -- keeps us in pain -- is... I think it just has to do with direct experience. What can I say? I might be answering your fourth question, but I think that it really just comes down to being open -- openness -- trust. If my intention is to see and breathe and live and act the truth -- truthfully, then I think that if I hold fast to that intent and imbue my intent from my highest mind then I think I will -- what can I say -- be living truthfully -- that will be where I am coming from -- so to speak -- the :"truthful place."

Phra Bart: I think you did answer my fourth question about the Path. This is your new insight into the path. When we read about the eightfold path, we think of eight specific items, but I think you gave a very different view of it. Anything you want to add to that?
Loren: Overall, my experience -- this entire journey of finding someone to instruct my wife and I in meditation -- everything in general, but especially here in Thailand -- has been "open." Its like, if your intention is a seed and every seed holds the promise of a thousand forests, you plant that seed and you never know how a plant is going to grow. It may grow this way or that. But, if you nourish it with one-pointedness and give it the attention that it needs, you will harvest -- you will have a good harvest -- like I believe I have had. You can never control the minute, mundane details, but if you hold fast to your intent... (gesture -> that's all that is necessary.).

Phra Bart: Wow, Loren you've had quite a meditation experience. Lets try to summarize. Overall, what do you think are the three most important lessons that you have learned?
Loren: I would say first, always be at the center of the center. You asked me do I feel that my meditation is finished and I say NO, because you are never there. It is a continuous journey. You are continuously learning. We are all subject to attachments and cravings. So, I think it is just a continual process of staying focused and staying centered and grounded.

Phra Bart: Has this meditation experience introduced any new concepts or directions to the yogic approach that you have been using in the States? Anything that will be different when you go back?
Loren: Absolutely -- in America you've got a lot of really powerful yogic techniques -- asanas -- many different styles you can choose from -- so many. But, I find very little meditation. I heard once that amateurs meditate to relax and those who are adept relax to meditate. So, I think that yoga feeds into meditation and makes you more open.
Phra Bart: Finally, what advice can you offer for other truth seekers like yourself?
Loren: Don't forget to breathe.

Phra Bart: Thank you, Loren. Thank you very much. You have inspired all of us to strive harder.

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